Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: That's why we do what we do, because we care about kids. And so if we care about kids, bio kids fall into that. And you're right, they do have a level of privilege. That's more because they have likely not experienced the trauma that kids in care have experienced, and yet they are still children. And if children matter to us, then bio kids should matter to us.
[00:00:20] Speaker B: This is Fostering Conversations with Utah Foster Care, where we have insightful conversations about.
[00:00:26] Speaker A: Parenting for bio foster, adoptive or blended.
[00:00:30] Speaker B: Families to better understand the experiences we all face as families.
[00:00:42] Speaker C: Welcome to Fostering Conversations. I'm Amy, the host, and we have Liz Rivera, our co host. Today we're chatting with Daniella, who is the founder of With Siblings. Thank you for joining us today.
[00:00:53] Speaker A: I'm so honored that you guys welcomed me and invited me to come.
[00:00:57] Speaker C: Yes, we love following your Instagram. You share a wealth of knowledge. You've also done trainings for Utah Foster Care. So we're excited to chat with you a little bit more today. Would you be willing just to introduce yourself, your story, and why you started with siblings and what things you have going on right now?
[00:01:13] Speaker A: Yeah. The brief synopsis is my parents fostered when I was younger, and so I grew up myself as a biological child or a bio kid in a foster family. They did adopt as well, but that was when I was like a young adult. So a little bit different experience there, but I do have experience then as a child bio kid and an adult bio kid. So that was my starting point. That was my first introduction to foster care, was just by my own family fostering when I was a kid. And then there's lots of bits and pieces within the story I could tell, but a very short version of it would say yes. I felt that was very important. It was something I was agreeable to our family doing. And I still said, I'm not doing this when I'm an adult. I'm not gonna foster and I'm not gonna adopt. I'll go into the field. That's how I'll use my experience to help other kiddos.
Joke's on me. I'm happily an adoptive mom as well to kids, birth kids and adopted kids. So that's just a short version of my story.
[00:02:13] Speaker B: I guess one thing that shows up to you, which you haven't yet mentioned, Daniela, is your academic experience as well. So we call you the triple threat because you have every criteria to be doing the work you're doing because you also have a clinical degree as well. Do you want to talk about that? A little bit. And why you decided to pursue that?
[00:02:29] Speaker A: Sure, yeah. So like I said, with my experience, I'm thinking, okay, I have all this background in posture care. Of course it's personal experience. But I'm thinking, how can I use this? Surely I can use this for good in some way. And so I decided, you know what, I'm going to go into social work. And I was actually very intentional to choose social work and not like counseling right away or like those kinds of things, because social work really felt like boots on the ground. And that's really what I wanted to do. And so I did work for a foster care adoption agency, of course, got my bachelor's in social, worked for a foster care adoption agency in my area. I was training foster parents, recruiting foster parents, decided to pursue my master's where I get a little bit more varied experience. Then as far as worked with the house's population, some did some school social, worked with a police department or did some social work in the police department. So I have a variety of experience in social work context. But then I was always drawn back, though, to foster care. And so what I found though, was that I was wanting to expand, which is where with siblings comes in and these trainings that I've developed and these resources that I've developed, as well as then being a therapist now at a practice and working with kids of all backgrounds, but working a lot with birth kids in foster adoptive families. So, yes, I do have the personal as a child, personal as a parent, and then the professional experience, knowing what it's like from that side to work with bio kids too.
[00:03:52] Speaker B: It's amazing.
[00:03:53] Speaker A: Thank you.
[00:03:54] Speaker B: So this is maybe I felt like maybe we dive in super personal, super quick. What was it about your experience being a child in a family that decided to foster, that stayed with you so strongly that it influenced many parts of your life?
[00:04:09] Speaker A: Yeah, well, I'll say the first set of kids that came to live with us, that was the hardest transition for me. That was the hardest set of kids for a variety of reasons. When I look back, honestly, I think it was a kind of a perfect storm. It was three kids. There were three of us, myself and two younger brothers. We added three ages. All got meshed and it was again the first one. So did any of us really know what to expect? My parents sure didn't. Twenty years ago, trauma informed anything was not what it is today. So even that in and of itself. So it was just. It was hard. But also my family had intended to adopt these kids. So there was that Added I say pressure because that's probably not the right word, but this thing in the background saying this is forever. And so as a kid it's, oh my word, my entire world has been turned upside down and this is forever. I'm stuck with it. And so it was really a hard transition and where a lot of the grief though also came in because those kids didn't end up staying with our family. It ended up being an adoption disruption. They weren't ever adopted by our family. So it disrupted prior to that. So I had a lot of the grief piece too. And these worrying feelings of this was really hard. I'm relieved it's over. Oh my goodness, I feel so much shame and guilt. People are not going to understand why this adoption didn't go through. I'm so sad. Even though it was hard, I really loved them and I spent a year attaching to them and getting to know them and calling them my siblings. So just this perfect storm of emotions too, within that. And then we went on to continue fostering with just the intention of fostering. And I feel like that got easier now. Whether that's because we were fostering, not adopting, whether that's because it wasn't the first placement, whether that's because I was becoming older, you know, Instead of a 10 year old, I'm now 16 and I'm. Or whatever. Yeah, multiple ages. But I'm older now.
But still it's hard. We know this still, regardless of age, it's still hard. And so that's why I did land in the camp of I'm. This is not going to touch my personal life. I. It's too hard, it's too emotionally costly. I want an easier life. Basically was the heart behind that is I would just like things a bit easier. Clearly, again, that's not the road that I took, but happens to the best of us.
[00:06:25] Speaker C: Don't worry. One of my favorite things that you, well, really your entire platform and what you're doing is that you are focusing on these bio kids in the family. Because I am a foster parent and I have bio kids and now adopted kids and many kids that have come in and out of my home. And I've also worked for Utah foster care. So many times people say, well, I just want to donate to the kids in care. Well, I just want to have this activity for the kids in care. And I'm thinking, you're right, I can afford this. I can afford to take my kids to the ice skating rink or bowling or whatever activity is being provided. However, all of the kids in my home should get to experience this because these bio kids are giving a lot. I have literally carried my children out of their beds in the middle of the night to put a stranger in their bed. That has happened more than once because I don't allow kids to share rooms the first night because I don't know what's going on.
[00:07:17] Speaker A: Right.
[00:07:17] Speaker C: So I'm getting kids out before I see the dynamic. But these kids go through a lot, and people on the outside don't see that, and they don't understand. They think, oh, this kid that's in foster care, it's awful. Which it is. No kid should be in foster care. It is awful. It's horrible. But these bio kids really pay a price. And so I love that you focus on these kids and their needs, because there are needs that are going unmet for sure.
[00:07:43] Speaker A: Yeah. And we have organizations that care about children, period. That's why. That's why we do what we do, because we care about kids. And so if we care about kids, bio kids fall into that. And you're right, they do have a level of privilege. That's more because they have likely not experienced the trauma that kids in care have experienced. And yet they are still children. And don't children matter to us? And if children matter to us, then bio kids should matter to us. And honestly, it's as simple as that. I will sometimes get into here's why, and here's why. But honestly, just, if we care about kids, we should care about them, too. That's the bottom line.
[00:08:17] Speaker C: I love that. No, it's so, so important. What has been your experience as a mom raising biological children and adopted children? What have been the differences? What have been the similarities, the struggles, the triumphs?
[00:08:31] Speaker A: Yeah, well, I first of all did things different than how I experienced it. I did not have bio kids first. I actually had them last. So we fostered and adopted prior to having our bio kids. And that means there's a lot of things they didn't have to experience that I had to. And that doesn't mean it's better. And it doesn't mean that parents shouldn't foster if they already have bio kids. Obviously, I don't believe that, or I wouldn't have with siblings. But for me, for example, one of the things that I experienced when those first set of kids came to our house was like, I'm being pushed out and replaced. These kids are taking my spot. Well, guess what? My bio kids have never had that thought because they were the last ones to Join. So there's these dynamics and these kind of challenges that I have more or less minimized because of the way we built our family, if that's really the appropriate term for that. But there's still challenges. And there's actually research done by Dr. Jana Hundley, and she does her research on what's called adoptive siblings. So most of the time that's referring to bio kids, but the way she describes it, it's really any of the kids in the home who are an adoptive sibling to someone who has maybe, like, more severe challenges. And so some of my adopted kids might fall into the adoptive sibling category, too. So it's this unique situation which many. I'm sure many families find themselves in as well. So we have our easier days than we have our more challenging days. And that's just. Is what it is. Yeah.
[00:10:02] Speaker C: Sometimes I laugh because that's just family dynamics.
[00:10:04] Speaker A: Right.
[00:10:05] Speaker C: I had three biological kids for the first 10 years until we started fostering. And then we added all sorts of. It's like being a mom and a family is hard. It just. Kids are hard. Kids are crazy. Life is stressful. And so you have the added dynamic to it, of course. But, yeah, parenting is hard. Children are wonderful. Little nightmares.
[00:10:27] Speaker A: Some days.
[00:10:28] Speaker C: Yes.
Oh, my goodness. Sometimes feel like ugly stuff.
[00:10:33] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah.
[00:10:35] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:10:35] Speaker A: That's a lot. Oh, my goodness.
[00:10:36] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:10:36] Speaker B: Which it sounds too. What you're. One of the things you're working on, Daniela, is building that understanding. So because it is so hard to parent, it is so hard. And then when you mix in all these different kids coming from different places at different times at different ages, it just adds to that. But you're trying to help people understand the situation better. And not sure if it makes it easier, but it makes it something which is better in some way.
[00:11:00] Speaker A: Well, I mean, when we hold knowledge, we feel it more in control. At least I think so. So, like, if I know what to expect, expect than when it comes. When the hard time comes, when my kid says that this has ruined their life, and instead of being blindsided by it, I'm like, okay, I knew that was coming, so it still can hurt. But it doesn't have to surprise us and jolt us in the same way. If we know these hard things are coming, and then we can feel like we're at least equipped with some idea on, okay, if this does happen, then what can I do? And I don't know for you all, I can't speak, but I know there's families on the front end of fostering that say well, what about my bio kids? And so a lot of that is the kind of on the forefront too. How can we equip families so they feel like they have at least something of a tools as a base, a foundation to at least feel comfortable to jump in knowing that they have something to hold them if things get hard?
[00:11:51] Speaker C: No, that's one of the. I recruited for a very short time for Utah foster care, but I feel like I recruit in life because I love foster care so much. But that's one of the top questions I feel like, is how will this affect the kids in my home? Whether they're biological or previously adopted, however they came, how will this affect my kids in the home? None of us can predict that.
[00:12:09] Speaker A: Right.
[00:12:10] Speaker C: But we can show trends and research. And the other thing I think is really good, having the knowledge, but also I find great peace in knowing that other people are experiencing the same chaos. I am just knowing that, yeah, this isn't abnormal that my bio kid is feeling this way or is overwhelmed. Because I love some of your Instagram posts or your satire where you're just like, oh, they're going to be so giving. And no, sometimes they're like, please get this kid out of our house. Please get them out right now. And that's reality. And so I think, knowing that, I think a lot of social medias and foster care things are very like, light and fluffy and say it's so great and it's. No, it's actually really hard. And it's really good to know that we're just all drowning together. Like, we got lifeboats around and we're each other's lifeboats. So just grab onto that one and grab onto that one. That's all we can do, right?
[00:13:02] Speaker A: And that's sometimes the hard part too, in this kind of space is not wanting to overload people with the negative or the potential negatives and also not wanting to give them all the fluff that gives them inspiration, but no reality. And that's where my kind of a blunt say it like it is person. And I think that's part of where this comes in is how can I say the thing in a way that's like, people can receive it and that's the space I'm constantly, like, teetering in. Enough positive, not too much negative. We're being real and giving helpful tools, that sort of thing. Yeah, I love that.
[00:13:40] Speaker B: What kind of comments do you get that are helpful for you or what are ones that you're like, oh, my gosh, they don't get this Honestly, I.
[00:13:47] Speaker A: Don'T have a lot of unhelpful comments. I've had some. There's some disagreement on even just the term biological child. And I agree, it's not perfect. We're all biological. We're. We all exist. So it's not great. Even I sometimes use the term birth kid just because it sounds a little less harsh. But we've all been birthed. There's just. There's no perfect term. Some people have gotten on to my post quite a while ago, but just kind of discuss what would be some other words we could use, but none of them land. You know, if we say forever or we say permanent, that's not really being specific. Some people have said like maybe we say kept. That's confusing. So that's private. Honestly, the biggest thing or just even when parents. And again, it's not unhelpful for me because it really doesn't bother me. But when parents see my stuff and it must hit a certain way and they feel a defensive response like, well, but I can't do that in my family. Or well, yeah, but it feels so some of those happen sometimes where it hits maybe close to home for folks. And at those points I'm like, you're right, this is just social media. This is not advice for your family personally. So I'm not pretending to speak for exactly what your family's going through, but as far as helpful stuff, folks are. I don't want to say often, but fairly regularly. I'm so glad I found you. I've been looking for something like this. I'm so glad that there is a platform that is talking about this. I've been wondering. So that's probably the thing that I get the most. And that's just a boost of encouragement that I'm filling a gap, which is what I feel like I'm doing. But some days I'm like, what I'm spinning my wheels is making a difference. And I think we all wonder that from time to time is what I do make a difference. And so those kinds of things are encouraging to me and help me to keep on keeping on.
[00:15:30] Speaker C: But your platform definitely is making a difference. I don't follow anybody else that does this type of focus. So I think you've really found a good niche that's needed. Like it really is needed. So I love following you and I'm so grateful for all the stuff you're sharing and it opens my eyes to things. What's one or two things that you just wish parents would know that are either in the foster journey or are considering it. What is. You're like, okay, this is what they would need to know. I wish they knew this.
[00:15:58] Speaker A: One thing I bring up fairly regularly is just this idea of making sure that bio kids have a voice.
And that is important whether you have already started fostering or whether you're just thinking about it. Because if we're starting the process and we haven't asked our kids if they're in, then when hard stuff comes, there's gonna be a lot of feelings and complicated feelings if it's something that's happened to them instead of something they've had like a buy in on and that they're agreeable to. So it's really important just from the get go that we are having conversations with bio kids. But even then, ongoing, taking new placements and those kinds of things. But we get in a tricky spot though, because then we come up to this, well, how much voice do they have? Like, how much control do they have? And I'm not pretending like there's this like magic formula. Here you go. It'll solve all your problems. Here's the perfect amount of voice. But given the analogy, sometimes, like, imagine if you go to a restaurant and the waiter offers you their special of the day and you decline it and they bring it to you and you're like, I said no thanks. Do you send it back? They bring it to you again and you're like, I. Okay. At this point, you're like, either they don't care and they're just trying to force this on me. Or they didn't. Maybe they didn't hear me, maybe they didn't understand. I'm wondering. You asked me what I wanted. You asked me if I wanted this. I said no. And now you're giving it to me. Well, that can be how it feels for bio kids too. You have asked me if we should move forward with adoption, if we should foster, if we should take another placement or take this other sibling. And I said, no way. We have our max. I'm tired, I can't do it anymore. And parents move forward anyway. What does that communicate to bio kids about their importance, about their role in the family, about their voice, about the power that they hold.
Says a lot. And so that's the biggest thing. I just want parents to like constantly be thinking about, not in constant like a 247 kind of way. But that should be one of the forefront things as a parent with bio kids is how am I involving them in the process and in a way that Gives them power and gives them control and helps them to feel like they're apart. That's my like biggest soapbox that I get on probably most frequently.
[00:18:12] Speaker C: I love that. I think that's really important. What would you say when there's discrepancies, like these kids are saying, yes, let's move forward with this and these kids are like, no way. Because obviously they all have their individual opinions. I guess then it just comes down to mom and dad making the best decision. Or what would you say then?
[00:18:29] Speaker A: It's going to depend on the situation. Right. We want to make sure that all kids needs are being met. So that's another thing. So if we've got one kid whose needs feel like they're not being met but all the other kids do, we could say, well, majority wins. But then we've left somebody behind. And so it's a tricky one. It would have to be like case by case. Right. I can't say, I guess always go this direction or that because again, if one person is saying and think about, I will often talk about the family system. And so think about the health and wellness of every person. The family impacts every other person. So if we've got one family member who is not having it, not having their needs met, not feeling supported down, whatever that is going to impact every person's family, including any kids we bring in, all of that. And so it really is important that every member of the family is supported on board and part of the decision making.
[00:19:23] Speaker B: Yeah. You think about the wellbeing of the kids in care in the home that the wellbeing of any of the kids affects, like you said, all of the kids. And if I think I'm doing this to help these kids who come into our home, but some of the kids that are already here, it's not going well with them. It's not going to work.
[00:19:38] Speaker A: Right.
[00:19:39] Speaker B: So going back to what you said at the beginning, all kids matter. We have to pay attention to all the children in order to help all the children.
[00:19:44] Speaker C: Yeah.
One of the posts that I saw you post, I don't know when, but it was like my home and my sanity are at capacity now because I the same way my husband like, okay, we're tacked out. We got five permanent kids that are never leaving and that builds a lot. And then our older kids are like, well, let's keep fostering.
[00:20:03] Speaker A: Oh my gosh.
[00:20:04] Speaker B: So you're bringing up the opposite when the parents are done and the kids are like, let's keep doing it.
[00:20:09] Speaker C: When you snatch their Voices you don't listen.
[00:20:12] Speaker A: That's fair. Again, if one member of the family.
[00:20:14] Speaker C: Isn'T on board, our happy medium is we do respite. So kids can come for a short amount of time, but they cannot stay forever anymore because we are at full time permanent capacity.
[00:20:27] Speaker A: But there's nothing wrong with being a restaurant provider. That's a fabulous thing that's needed and it still brings bio kids along in this journey, but still involves them. I think it's wonderful when families who feel at capacity for the long term are able to do that. And even if they haven't ever jumped into foster care, I think respite can be a really great way for families to get involved. To just see like this doesn't need to be scary. We can do this with bio kids. It's totally possible. So respite is a great way to introduce that too.
[00:20:58] Speaker C: Totally agree. So tell us all of the fun things that you have going on with your organization. I know you've done trainings for us. You have training coming up for us. You have a book. Tell us about all the fun things that you're doing that our listeners can take advantage of.
[00:21:13] Speaker A: Sure. So I've got a number of trainings that's primarily what I get out there to folks. Again, to fill that gap. People are looking for information. So trainings range from just like, how do we support them in general, what do we know about their experiences from research, those kinds of things to like grief and loss and navigating that with them. What do we know about birth order? How do I help them to have relationships together as siblings? I have another training next year on helping our kids, just mitigating some of the impact of secondary traumatic stress in our bio kids. So that's a new one that I've got coming next year. So the trainings are very topical to try to meet these kind of specific questions and concerns that parents have. And I also have one for professionals too because that's another missing piece sometimes is the professionals don't always understand or know anything about the biokit experience. And so it's really great if agencies bring a training and even just to just to educate their staff on, hey, this is things to look for and these are ways that you can include these kids too. And it doesn't have to be big. Anyway, so those are the trainings. I have a couple of resources too, like different worksheets that are on my website that parents can like download do with their kids. I've got a seven page quick guide to communication like when should we communicate? What are some things we should be communicating with our kids? Those sorts of things. I have an appreciation certificate, which it's a free download, so it's perfect for either parents or agencies. Take the certificate, put the bio kids name on it, and you have just shown them that they are a valuable part of the family. Yeah. It can make such a big impact and such a small, easy thing. I put together a book list. Yes, I have written a children's book. I may or may not be biased towards it. I have put together a list of other books though, that have written for bio kids. And so that's another, like, freedom that I've got that people can have access to as well. So. And then I wrote a book, it released in September about a girl named Lily. She's a bio kid in a foster family. And when a new kid joins a family, she has a really hard without adjustment. Now she's already, as you'll see if you have read the book, she's actually already had kids that have joined her family. So this isn't even like the first placement, but there's something about this one that hits a little bit different. And so she's introducing this new kiddo to her friends and to their, you know, family friends. And people are just not giving her the same attention as they were. And they're seeming to prioritize this new kid and family routines are changing. And so she's what? I must have turned invisible. People can't seem to see me anymore. So the title is the Day Lily Turned Uninvisible. And so we do see like a change toward the end of the book. And I've actually had folks reach out to me. What's the reason that it changed? Because of this, because of this, because of this. And well, I left it open ended on purpose because it just depends. So, yeah, I am very passionate about the book. It was so much fun to write and it plays on. What we know from research is that Bio kids do often report feeling invisible. And so it's based off of that knowledge that we know about them as well.
[00:24:07] Speaker C: Yeah. Well, that's awesome.
[00:24:10] Speaker B: One thing I love about what you do is that you are very careful to speak about what you know and you try not to get outside of that. And I appreciate that so much. And then I think also in a way, it feels like you want us to fall in love with the questions and live with the questions instead of always finding that perfect answer.
[00:24:29] Speaker A: Yeah, I love how you just framed all of that. Thank you. What a Beautiful compliment you just gave me in all of that for seeing. Just seeing the way that I try to communicate those things. Yeah, I agree. I. Even when I have folks in training who sometimes ask me questions, I don't always give them a straight answer back. And sometimes that's frustrating to people. Well, I ask the question, I need the answer, and there's just not always an answer. I am honestly, I've said this before, I am a bio kid. I am a mom to kids by birth and adoption and professional in the field. I've got tons of training and experience and all this. If anyone had it figured out by now, the balance, the whatever, it would be me.
[00:25:10] Speaker C: Yep.
[00:25:10] Speaker A: I would have it all together. If anyone, it would be me. I don't. So if I don't, you won't. Sorry. We're in this together.
So. Yeah. Living with the question, living with the both and just being willing to contemplate and sit with, what are my feelings as a parent? Because sometimes the feelings of my bio kids might trigger my feelings as a parent or even show there. Maybe they're a mirror. I was my. When I was younger, there was a time where I voiced how hard things were and my dad was pretty frustrated by it and he was able to look back and say, this is because you said the thing that I didn't feel like I could say and I didn't want to accept that I was feeling. So that's why I was not happy when you said it, because I didn't know how to accept it in me. And so that's another thing as parents too, is if we're okay with sitting with questions, then we're okay. We're learning to be uncomfortable. And that means if I'm uncomfortable and I can sit in my discomfort, I can sit with my kids discomfort as we're journeying through the whole process.
[00:26:12] Speaker C: That's something that I'm working on.
[00:26:14] Speaker A: So same.
[00:26:16] Speaker C: You've shared so much great info with us and your Instagram shares a wealth of knowledge, which I was telling Liz before we started chatting with you. I love that you actually give info on your Instagram and it's not just DM me for a code to get a magical info. And I'm like, no, just please tell me. I'm desperate. Okay, I need this right now. So your Instagram with siblings is so helpful. And then you also have your website with siblings.org which has a wealth of knowledge and the things that you just talked about and then the books that you can buy love that are there any Other things that you want to share with us that we didn't get to touch on or that you really have a passion or a love for that you want to share before we finish up.
[00:26:55] Speaker A: My heart in all of this isn't that parents figure out the perfect formula or that people stop fostering if they have birth kids. Right? That's not. That's never my goal. Right in this. My heart in all of this is that bio kids and whatever their situations feel seen and supported along the journey. And so whatever that might look like in every family might be different. But that's. That's my heart in this. That's my heart in the book that I wrote and the fact that I have developed these trainings because it's my hope that these kids will feel supported. They don't have to be supported by me, but they as long as they're supported and seen by somebody. And so that's just. That's really my heart in all of this.
[00:27:33] Speaker C: And I'm with you. Fostering is the most difficult thing I've ever done and also the most beautiful thing I've ever done. And I think my kids would say that, too.
[00:27:42] Speaker A: It is.
[00:27:43] Speaker C: It has really broken us at times, and it has really been something very beautiful and something that's very addicting. You just can't walk away from it. You just want to keep loving these kids in whatever capacity it is. And so I love that you just. You're focusing on all the kids. I love that that all of the kids matter, not just the kids that are experiencing foster care, but all of the kids in the home matter. And there's different ways to love and support these kids depending on their frequency.
[00:28:12] Speaker B: Love that.
[00:28:13] Speaker C: Well, thank you so much for joining us today and thank you for the trainings you do for Utah Foster Care and the upcoming ones we have with you next year and your awesome Instagram. Thank you so much for just all that you give out into the world. We really appreciate it. We appreciate your time today, too.
[00:28:33] Speaker B: This is been Fostering Conversations with Utah Foster Care. Thank you for joining us. For more information, go to Utah fostercare.org.
[00:28:42] Speaker A: We'll see you next time.
