Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: What began as a bold experiment in Utah now celebrates 25 years of nurturing families.
[00:00:06] Speaker B: And coming up, what we've learned over two decades of doing this work.
[00:00:11] Speaker A: This is fostering conversations with Utah foster care, where we have insightful conversations about parenting for bio foster, adoptive, or blended families to better understand the experiences we all face as families.
Hi, I'm Deborah Lindner, and thanks for joining us. LiZ Rivera, my co host, is here. Good morning, Liz.
[00:00:40] Speaker B: Hi. And I'm the director of education here at Utah Foster Care.
[00:00:43] Speaker A: Yes, very important person. And we also have more very important people, five special guests, most of whom have been with Utah foster care almost from the beginning, right, Liz?
[00:00:57] Speaker B: Yes. And five guests is more than we usually do on a podcast. But we looked at our roster and wanted to have everybody who's been here from the beginning come in and talk about what 25 years of Utah foster care has meant.
[00:01:09] Speaker A: And there's a lot of things that go into foster care. We're going to be talking about all of them. But the major thing that I've seen through the years is that everybody at Utah foster care considers the child the most important thing. And we're gonna start with one of the people in the trenches. By that, I mean one of the esteemed trainers who's often one of the first people that prospective foster parents meet. Coming in, Brian Young, the regional trainer. Tell me what you said when we asked you what's the most important thing you've learned?
[00:01:47] Speaker C: You know, it didn't take very long for it to come to my mind. I remember being in a training one night, and we talk all the time about loss and grief and what kids experience and how this is all for the kids. And everything we do is for the best interests of the children. And I was walking the class through the concepts of loss and grief, and I started noticing that for some reason, this time, it was affecting me different.
Didn't know why, but I was walking them through what might happen to a child as they go through a removal, and dcfs shows up at their door and. And then this happens, and maybe the police show up, and all of a sudden, before they know it, they're in the back of a car they've never been in, with somebody they've never met before, and they're going to someplace they've never been, and they're leaving everything they've known. And this person that they just met 2 hours ago just keeps looking at them and saying, hey, it's going to be okay. You're going to be fine. Don't worry. It's all going to be good. And for some reason, this time when I was talking about it, it started sinking in, what that must feel like for a child to have that degree of loss. And I remember as I'm standing there in front of this group and they're all looking at me. And of course, this kind of a scenarios sometimes for some of them, the first time they've actually thought this through. And so the looks on their faces didn't really help me much either. And I remember thinking, I've talked about this for 20 years, and why is this tonight hitting me the way it's hitting me?
I'm 60 plus years old. I've been through plenty of loss myself. But for some reason, that level of loss, that degree of totality, the fear, the terror, the unknown just hit me. I literally had to stop and take a deep breath before I could go on. And I got done with that class and I just sat there after everybody left, I just sat there thinking about it and I thought, if we don't remember that this is all about the kids, that everything we do should be geared towards helping them make sense of this crazy world that they're finding themselves in. Words like, it's going to be okay, you're safe now, don't worry. Everything's going to be fine. Don't mean a thing. And if we don't remember that, then things start happening to them instead of for them. And I just remember that night feeling like we can't forget them. This is why we're here. That's it.
[00:04:15] Speaker B: That's profound. Thank you, Brian. And I think a perfect setting for this conversation today and keeping in mind the reason that Utah Foster care exists. Thank you.
We want to turn now to current CEO and a past CEO at Utah Foster care to talk a little bit about the origins of how Utah foster care was created, because we are relatively an unusual organization. I know when we were first created, we really were almost only one in the nation and kind of where that came from. So we'll start with Mike and then ask Nikki to jump in.
[00:04:50] Speaker D: Mike Hamblinde, Liz mentioned been here with Utah Foster care since the beginning. Started out in the recruitment department and Lilly kind of worked up and then shifted over into the clinical consultant role. And it's been interesting. I think most of us started in child welfare within other organizations, whether it was dcfs or elsewhere, and had a different view of the child welfare system. And at the time that Utah foster care was created, there were some definite problems within the system that Utah had undergone a lawsuit, and they were working on trying to fix some things. And at the time, Governor Mike Levitt just noted that as he stated it, the system was never going to be able to improve the way it needed to until there was a consistent group of incoming foster parents to meet the needs of the children in care. And so we were created specifically so that there would always be an organization focused on recruiting and training foster parents and replenishing that supply. It's interesting because coming from bcfs, we had one person who was responsible to do the training and recruiting of foster parents. I also noted that when caseload would get high, they would assign her caseloads. And so right in those moments when we needed more families, we had no families coming in. And so I think it was pretty insightful of Governor Lemon at the time to say, this needs to be the focus, and that's where we come from. And it's been interesting, as we started this conversation to kind of look and see all of the improvements to child welfare on the whole, but also child welfare in Utah over the last 25 years. It's been pretty dramatic where we started compared to where we are now.
[00:06:25] Speaker A: Nikki, our current CEO, take it up from there.
[00:06:29] Speaker E: Well, Brian, thanks for setting the stage this morning. I think that's a good reminder for all of us in this important work, is keeping the kids as the focus. And I like how you talked about what are we doing to them, but what are we doing for them? Delineating that thinking back to the beginning, I've been with Utah Foster care also since it was created. So going back to 1999 and coming over previously working as a caseworker with the division of Child and Family Services and being in that role, working directly with the families and kids and stepping into the space at Utah foster care, trying to address the struggles of finding more foster families and supporting them in the best way that we could. One of the great things about the public private partnership that Governor Levitt created with this idea was how can we leverage the community and donations in a way that maybe a state agency can't do? So that's been one of my favorite things over the last 25 years is really helping educate the community. What are the needs? Who are the kids, who are the families? And how can people step into this space and really be a support to everybody involved in the child welfare system?
[00:07:41] Speaker B: And speaking of support, I want to first start with Lee. When Nikki was talking about support, I was thinking Utah foster care was created to support the foster families. But those of us at Utah foster care. We also need support. And Lee Wright, who most of you listening probably have never met, but she has been integral to the work we do. And my joke is, all of us are in the office almost every day. One of us yells, Lee because we need something from Lee, and she is our problem solver. So, Lee, we'd love to bring you in. Now, you're a human resource specialist. You're an office manager. You're really everything to us at UT foster care. So you're behind the scenes and not technically involved in the day to day working with the families and child welfare, but you are very much involved in the work we do. So I'd love to hear your perspective.
[00:08:25] Speaker F: Well, having been here, yes, since 1999, coming from a retail background to a nonprofit background was quite an eye opener for me, and just deciding what I should do and how to do it has been very interesting. I've learned an awful lot about social work and the work that we do for the families and the children also over all of these years. So I'm just in the background all the time, and I do what I do.
[00:08:59] Speaker A: Let me cut in here. Lee, you have been an observer, as I have, because I didn't come from social work. Tell us what you've observed and what you've learned just by observing people like Brian do the training and meeting the families.
[00:09:17] Speaker F: Well, I have actually seen all of our original trainers train, and watching Brian and Les train and Liz has been quite an eye opener just because they're so very professional and they are so very passionate about what they do and how they educate prospective families. I think everybody should take a parenting class after being in these classes. I use the things that I learned in class on my grandkids.
[00:09:51] Speaker A: I think we all have. We're all here shaking our heads like, oh, yeah, I use that technique that Les taught me on my son. One thing that we did at the very beginning was we realized that Salt Lake could not be the only place where we recruit and train foster parents. So going out to the rural sections of Utah has been very different. And what may be surprising to some people, but, yes, we do have kids in foster care in rural Utah. What have you observed up there?
[00:10:25] Speaker G: One of the things I've recognized going back 35 years when I started with DCFS, is the rural area has specific challenges that otherwise might be overlooked by the rest of the state. First of all, we are geographically limited. That means that the ability to get to families and to get to places in the region become quite a challenge, particularly with weather considerations and mileage and so on and so forth. One of the things, particularly in our region, we are also serving two different native american populations, with the Navajo nation to the south and the Unn, or reu population to the north. And what I learned early, and I learned this as part of my service with DCFs, is those populations in both areas are overrepresented in the child welfare system, meaning were a rural area, but yet the children in those tribes were being placed in foster care at a higher rate than other kids. Therefore, we had to learn very quickly to work with tribal systems, tribal court, the legal processes, and I don't know that that's changed. The inclusion of Indian Child Welfare act and some of the dynamics of working with the tribes has not really changed much. Yet. The challenges remain. That is, how do we serve two legal systems, two cultural dynamics, as Brian said, to make it work for the kids and make sure that we're meeting their needs. And I think that still remains as one of our biggest challenges.
[00:12:07] Speaker A: And let me go to Mike, because Mike was here when Utah foster care and the state of Utah realize that we need to have recruiters specifically for latino communities, native communities. Talk about that, Mike.
[00:12:22] Speaker D: It is interesting how some of that evolved with the latino community. We actually just knew we needed some folks that were spanish speaking. I think we were one of the first organizations that ran spanish language ads on mainstream media, which was kind of interesting. So then see others follow us down, and that's where it started. And then from there, we determined we actually needed somebody that focused on that population full time. And similarly, it was a little over ten years ago, maybe, that we were in a meeting with the tribes and the division of Child Family Services. And at the time, we committed to fundraising to pay for a part time position that would work and liaison directly with the tribes in conjunction with DCFS, that we would fundraise for part of it, and they would commit to part of it. And it turned over the last five years or so, it went from a 20 hours a week position to a full time position, just noting the importance of being able to work with the tribes. But the reality is that Brian was talking about the experience kids go through, the loss that they experience, moving away from their family to someone that they don't necessarily know. Everything changes. Everything around them changes. The smell, the taste, the foods, all of that. And anything that can be done to maintain some level of cultural similarity or someone at least understands the culture of where they're coming from is going to make pretty impactful difference on the experience and the trauma that they have. And so a lot of that is just focused on what can we do to minimize the trauma to kids by trying to have them be with foster families that look like them, that behave like them, that have similarities. And there's still differences. There's differences within all families, even of the same race or culture, but there's more similarities there that can support the kids and make a difference for them.
[00:14:11] Speaker B: Amazing. Just having a familiar food in the house can help the kids feel a little bit safer in that environment. Nikki, one thing you brought up was the partnership with the community. We were created as that bridge between government and the community and how that bridge has been built and continues to be built. And I'd love to hear more about how that's maybe evolved over 25 years.
[00:14:34] Speaker E: Yeah, it's been an interesting process, really. And I think that we're really just coming into our own in that area. In the last three or four years, we've always had community support. We've had amazing churches step in and help during the holidays, and businesses step in in different ways over the years, but that's really blossomed and turned into an amazing support system. As I was thinking about the reason why that may be, I think there's a few things that went into that. One is really just the emergence of social media and how we are able to share our story more broadly and share the work we're doing and try to really tell who are the families we're serving, who are the foster families, and who are the biological families that are working so hard to reunify with their kids, and what do they all need to have a broader reach through social media has really helped. The partnership that we have with the first lady and the show up team has certainly also helped us share our message. They use our platform to really put that out there, and people always want to help, but people just don't know how to do that. And so I think we've gotten better at being creative and finding ways for everybody to step into the space and find a way to be a support, whether that's being a foster parenthood, whether that's being a volunteer, a donor, a business, opening up your space for training. There's so many ways people can get involved, and we've been able to find new creative ways to do that over the years, which has been fun.
[00:16:06] Speaker B: Nikki, you mentioned telling our story. What is our story?
[00:16:10] Speaker E: That's a good question. I think our story is one of hope and one of healing and one of really just helping provide a safe place for kids ultimately right for kids to land when their families are in a really hard and challenging situation and time in their life. I think our place is how do we make a soft place for the kids to land and how can we put things into motion that will help support that process of allowing kids to be reunified with their parents? Really? So I think our story is one of caring. I think about our employees at Utah foster care, in the word that always comes to my mind is passionate. We all care deeply about the work we do and the families we serve. And it's a beautiful thing to watch when people care that much and really want to make the world a better place, make our state a better place and help in whatever way we can.
[00:17:12] Speaker D: Mickey's comments about having staff that are passionate about the work that we do kind of spoke to me and I don't know how many people know this. This has been something that Nikki has always excelled at as a caseworker. She started a sub for Santa program for kids in foster care for the team that she was on. And I don't know of anybody else at DCFS that was doing that. That carried over to the work that we were doing at Utah foster care and expanded to where there's now statewide efforts to try and help around the holidays, among other things. I do think that's something that's inherent in her deepest and her leadership in that community outreach. I can't think of a better person to be working with the community, to be working with the different organizations. It's been awesome to watch what it was working with one church the very first Christmas that we were organization to what it is now is pretty amazing. So I just don't want to skip over that. Appreciate all of your passion, Mickey. As you talk about the passion of the staff, it definitely comes with some very good leadership.
[00:18:18] Speaker A: I do remember coming to Utah Foster care a couple years after it started and seeing some of those original videos that we did. And the messaging was very different at first. It put out a wide swath. Mike, how did we figure out we've got to change the message.
[00:18:38] Speaker D: I think what we noticed was when it comes to messaging, there's a foster parent that made the comment that she often gets told that she must be a very special person for being a foster parenthood. And her response is always, I'm not a special person. I'm just a regular person doing a special thing. And I think that that really feeds into the commentary when it comes to what the messaging is that being a foster parent is often about timing. It's about what your current circumstances and situation is. It's about how it fits with the other things that are going on at that time in your life. You talk about kind of the broad based messaging of we just need foster parents, which is true. We just need foster parents. But there's a recognition also that, speaking to Brian's original comments, we need foster parents that are willing to care for kids coming from some traumatic experiences and as a result, are going to have some challenges that they're dealing with. We need foster parents that they're willing to recognize that the, the kids coming into foster care aren't all under the age of five. We need some families to care for teenagers. And so, I mean, I think the messaging turns to one from we just need foster parents to more of a specific these are the needs of the kids in foster care. This is what the kids are like, this is what they're experiencing, and this is the kind of support that's going to be beneficial to them. And frankly, I think it prepares people as they begin asking questions and thinking about it. So the research shows that most people think about being a foster parent for at least a year before they reach out, before they start asking questions of an agency. And I think it's useful for them to be asking themselves the right question. What does it look like to take care of a teenager? What does it look like to take care of a sibling group? What does it look like to take care of a child who's coming from a background where they've experienced some grief and loss and disappointment, and as a result, that's going to have an impact on how they feel about things and their experience. And so a lot of it's just tying into, again, what are the needs of the kids? Rather than just saying, we need foster parents, what do the children really need that are coming into foster care?
[00:20:49] Speaker A: And I think at some point it hits every foster parent that, that aha. Moment, oh, this is not about me. This is about the children.
[00:21:00] Speaker C: You know, it's true. And I've watched over the years as families have come in. I've never had a family come into the first class and say, you know, I wanted to do foster care just because I've wanted to work with a different division in government than I've ever worked with before. No one's ever said that. No one's ever said, I'm just looking for an experience, for frustration.
Everyone comes with a desire, and initially, as you would expect, it's motivated personally. I mean, people come in, they want to start a family or grow their family, get a girl, because they've got five boys. Whatever it is, it brings them to this world of foster care. And as you said, deborah, at a certain point, they have the opportunity to decide whether or not they're going to stay on that. It's about what I want.
[00:21:46] Speaker G: Road.
[00:21:47] Speaker C: Or they're going to move to, it's about what the kids need road. And it is a beautiful thing when that happens, to watch someone who, who will say, this isn't about me anymore. The first night they introduce themselves and tell us all what child they hope to be able to adopt. And then four or five classes in, they're all about, it's not about what I want. It's about what the kids need. And that's what we need, is the children to be served by families who are looking at them and saying, how can I help you for whatever time you're with me? What can I do to help you have a little bit of hope in a future that is positive, that is hopeful.
How can I help you get that? As opposed to what do I want out of this? So it is, it's a great thing when you see that happen, and it's frustrating for everyone when it doesn't happen, because it just ends up in being mad and angry and frustrated everything all the time. And that doesn't help anybody.
[00:22:50] Speaker B: And one big change, I think, too, over the years, is just how we talk about the kids and the issues. I know early on, our first curriculum was very behaviorist reward and punishment kind of approach, and less I'd love to hear you talk a little bit about that shift from that behaviorist approach to more of that trauma informed approach.
[00:23:11] Speaker G: As I mentioned earlier, I started with ecfs, and eventually, within a short time, became what was known as the structured consultant. And for those of you who are more familiar with the current language, that would be kinda considered level three placement. So I was working with the population of kids back then that were labeled troubled teens, and that was the common terminology of trouble to use, for example. And so it was based on point systems and a focus on behavior and trying to manage behaviors without ever recognizing there was something underneath that behavior that drove the behavior to begin with. As I started down that path, I began to recognize very early that those behavior management systems were simply not effective. They weren't working. The outcomes were not helping kids manage those difficult emotions and behaviors. And so that journey started early, at least for me and I think as an organization, as we started to recognize that there's something else happening here. The behaviors are only manifestations of something much deeper. And as an organization, and this is what I think I admire the most, is we took it upon ourselves to essentially take a curriculum that started off with that behavioral focus and say, there's more. There's more to this story. And we began to research, and we began to look at various explanations. And I remember early on reading becoming attached by Doctor Robert Karen, I believe. And that really transformed my idea about those early childhood experiences, the adversity and the effects of trauma, that kids are not losing the ability to connect with people, but they're producing behaviors to communicate my needs. And we weren't getting that. And so in the process, we started, as I said, to do the research, had become more trauma, informed ourselves, and accordingly began to transform our curriculum in a way that really focused on the underlying effects of trauma. And that made a huge impact. And I think we were, and I don't have any research to back this up, but I think we were on the cutting edge of that in terms of educating our families about the effects of trauma and focusing on that instead of trying to only manage those behaviors. And I think that's been one of the transformations that I have admired the most.
[00:25:45] Speaker B: I think you're right, because we were looking at what other states were doing, and I think we were really ahead as far as a lot of that went with our families.
[00:25:53] Speaker A: Les just said, what we've discovered is brain science. I mean, for some of you that have more advanced degrees, you might have thought of it, but we're putting that front and center in our training. I mean, this was the first time I learned that your brain doesn't fully develop till you're 25 years old. So how can you expect these kids that have been through trauma to all of a sudden snap to attention at 18 and be ready to go off on their own?
[00:26:23] Speaker C: What we've learned about the brain in the last little while has not only changed how I teach, but it's changed how I exist. I mean, just knowing that there are reasons for those behaviors, that there's a difference between a child choosing to do something and being compelled to do something out of a reactive behavior, and that they're not thinking it through, which means they're not doing it just to irritate us, that's just a bonus. That's not what they're after. There's a whole list of things that I looked at after we learned this stuff about the brain and went, people need this. I mean, you need to know this. How can you possibly think to address a child's behavior without knowing where it's coming from and helping them see that, that their choice and behaviors comes with certain consequences? And if those consequences aren't the ones that they're looking for, there are other alternatives. And how about we look at why you're doing this, not just that you did it. Let's learn from it. I mean, I've always felt like, as a parent, I'm my best parent when I'm parenting for the future. I take what's happened in the present and I use it to apply it to the next situation that we deal with and that I found so many people sitting in classes going, I mean, every one of us have heard this 100,000 times. Oh, I wish I'd have known this when I was raising my kids. I do, too. But we know it now, and we know it now, and we're able to apply it to the behaviors of these kids. And I just think every foster parent needs this in their quiver of arrows to attack and approach these issues. It changed everything for me.
[00:28:07] Speaker G: One of the things that I've really appreciated as we've focused on this brain based approach to parenting and understanding how trauma affects the function of the brain. And now, as the clinical consultant, I'm applying that same principle to how we as adults then interact with children and the effect on our own thought processes and our impulses and emotions when we're dealing with difficult emotions and behaviors ourselves. So we not only begin to apply that to the effects that it has on children and how we can moderate our approach to help them make sense of why those things are happening. But now, as we expand that and we can help parents recognize that their brain is also being impacted in very similar ways. The stressor of caring for difficult emotions and behavior can overwhelm that parenting response system in ways that we haven't understood as well as we should, perhaps. But now, in the last couple of years or so, we're really getting a handle on the effect of parenting kids with trauma on our brains. And I think that's a very important milestone to getting better and understand the overall effect of trauma on all of us.
[00:29:26] Speaker A: The community is realizing they always want to give us blankets and things for children, and we know that's wonderful, but the parents also need lots of support.
[00:29:37] Speaker D: Just tying into what Les and Brian have said is that part of understanding how brain functions and how the impact it has based on what we've experienced, I think also feeds into how we view the parents of children in foster care and recognizing that they come with their own history of experiences and challenges and problems that have gotten them where they are. And I tell people all the time, I don't know of any parents that wake up one morning and say, today I think I'm going to abuse my child, or today I'm going to neglect my child and make sure they don't have enough to eat. Today I'm going to make sure that they are totally unsupervised. The reality is mostly what we're seeing is parents that have their own challenges and aren't handling them well and need supports themselves. And as we can start to view it a little bit more through that lens, I think it makes it easier to recognize that while we're helping the parent or while we're helping the children, hopefully the parents are getting the services that they need so that these relationships can be healed. And the goal is for kids to go home. And recognizing how brains work also means we have to recognize that while kids can change, so can their parents.
And that's kind of the big picture, is everybody's coming from this place of their own experiences, and hopefully they can get to a better place where all of that can be overcome.
[00:31:04] Speaker E: In line with what you were saying, too, with what we've learned about the brain and trauma, and what we're teaching foster parents about that, and what we're helping biological parents learn about that. Some of the volunteer programs that we're offering and ways for people to get involved, one of the most recent ones is the care communities, and that is bringing together members of a church congregation or a business that want to be a care community for a foster family. And a part of that process is training them about trauma. And I've just loved hearing what you now have ten families in a church congregation that have a training about trauma, and not only will that help them with the foster family and the kids they'll be working with, but we've heard comments of, wow, I just never knew that. And now when I go and coach my son's soccer team, it's helping me understand what's going on with this little kid that I was just frustrated with. But now I can look at from a different lens. And now when I am working, like helping my own kids or my grandkids, as Lee mentioned, really just educating the community about trauma is it's a game changer. I think it's really going to make a huge difference. And coming from wanting to help foster families has been a really exciting thing to see.
[00:32:23] Speaker B: I think we've been talking about something we call parallel process. So when we're talking about it applies to the kids, it applies to the foster parents, it applies to the parents of the children in care. And I want to come back to Lee for a second and just, I think it also applies in taking care of staff. And I think that, Lee, you've taken such good care of us for so long, so that we're able to, for 25 years, everybody on the screen here, you've been taking care of us for 25 years. Where's your passion? How do you help keep our passion alive? By your passion to serve us.
[00:32:54] Speaker F: It's my charge and duty to take care of the staff because that's my title. So even though I carry a lot of titles, mostly what I do is staff support. That's the main thing in my job description, is make sure staff have computers and office space and desks and the support that they need so that they can go out and do the mission of Utah foster care. That's the most important thing. So that's my charge, if you will, to make sure that staff can go out and do those things.
Does it always work? No, but most of the time, everybody has what they need to be able to move forward with their mission. So that's what I do and I love.
[00:33:45] Speaker B: We can pull the curtain back a little bit and let people see you and all the work you do for us so that we're able to serve the families who are then able to serve the children and their families. Thank you, Lee. Les, did you have something you want to jump in with?
[00:33:58] Speaker G: Yeah, I wanted to just respond to what Lee was suggesting and that it's her job. That's what her charge is. That's her responsibility.
But in knowing Lee, as long as I have, in being a part of this organization, it's more than just her job responsibility. I think she cares deeply about us as individuals. It's obvious in the way she responds to us in such caring, compassionate ways. And it speaks to a broader issue, I think overall with Utah foster care is that it's as though every individual within the organization has such a deep caring for one another that we can then translate that into how we serve others outside the organization. So I think it speaks to a broader picture of the corporate culture, if you will, that we as individuals, and starting with Lee on down, we care deeply about one another, and that makes us better when we go out and help families and help kids.
[00:35:03] Speaker A: Also, other organizations may tout their corporate culture, but Lee, you live it. And you have helped us be very flexible through some very rough times. For instance, the pandemic, we had to switch everything to being online. We couldn't have gotten through that without you.
[00:35:25] Speaker F: Thank you.
[00:35:26] Speaker B: So I want to talk, I think because I'm a trainer, obviously I'm a little biased, but I want to talk a little bit again about that idea of opening the vision of foster families that happens in the classroom. But I also kind of want to talk about that ongoing connection we have with them through training and how we harness that relationship we have with them to help them to continue to grow and also our ability to learn from them, too, because I think that's a huge thing, is that we continue to learn from them and not just them learn from us. So I'd love to hear a little bit more about those longer term relationships that we're able to form with the foster families and them continue to learn and us learn from them.
[00:36:08] Speaker C: That moment that we've talked about of shift in purpose generally does happen in the classroom. And you can tell when it happens because their engagement changes. You can also tell when it doesn't. And it's frustrating for them, it's frustrating for us, but it gives us an opportunity to try and find ways to help shift that focus that they come with. And you know why? I have nothing but respect for people who want to be foster parents. They come with a desire to help. Granted, it's how can I get what I want out of helping in this situation? But they come. There are a lot of people think being a foster parent is a very noble thing to do, but there are a lot fewer people who actually find themselves sitting in a class, being willing to go through with everything that's required of them to become foster parent. So if we can help them see the value in making that paradigm shift, if you will, and focusing more on the needs of the children, it puts them in a place to experience foster care on a level that I don't think they even realized existed. They've always been willing to open up their hearts, open up their home, but now they're doing it for a different reason.
And when you say, how do we keep that relationship going? I don't know if Les feels any differently or if you feel any differently, but I feel like once I've seen a family make that shift, I'm in the background. I'm just kind of there to answer questions. When they have them. I don't really need to pull them along anymore. They've caught the vision, I guess you can say it, and I'm more than happy to be a support person for them, but they tend to take it and run, and all of a sudden, what the children need becomes their priority. And they don't need me to keep reminding them of that. I don't know, less feel any differently.
[00:37:56] Speaker G: No, I agree with what you're saying. And what occurred to me as you were describing that experience is, and I've heard this, and many of you have likely heard a very similar thing, Brian is the best trainer in the state. And then you'd hear from somebody from southwest, and it'd be Denise and then somebody maybe from the eastern region. Oh, Les, he's the best. And so every person in those regions who we're connecting with tends to, to look at that relationship differently through their lens of what that meant, to go through a process of learning some very difficult things together. And I always come back to something that Doctor Bruce Perry said in some of his literature, and that was what helps people heal, is the availability of a relationship. We have vulnerable families when we have families who are struggling, when we recognize that maybe the foster care parenting experience isn't working out the way they hoped or wanted. I got what I wanted. It wasn't what I expected. They can turn to that relationship, and we, Brian and I and the other trainers were available. Right. We've developed such a good relationship with them during that process that now we're their resource when they need support. And I think that's sustained relationships in such a positive way that many foster parents likely have maintained their ability to remain foster parents because of the significance of those relationships.
[00:39:27] Speaker B: It's one thing we talk a lot about is the relationship. That's the core of everything we do. I think when Nikki and Mike talking about community relationships and relationships with DCFs, Lee with relationships with staff, that everything comes down to those connections. Thank you. So now we kind of, as we're wrapping up, we talked about what we've learned, experienced a very small amount about the last 25 years. But I'd love to talk a little bit about the vision, hope for the future of Utah foster care, the families and children we serve, but also child welfare in general. And that's a big ask, but just what you feel comes to mind as we're thinking about that. And let's start with Nikki.
[00:40:05] Speaker E: That is a big question for sure, but I think that one of the things we're working toward, and Governor Cox has talked about it in his state of the state and also in a recent press conference with us, is the goal of having Utah be the first state that has families waiting for kids and not kids waiting for families. So how do we continue to educate the community and let them know about the need for foster families and really try to meet that goal and have families waiting so that when a child comes into foster care, there are multiple options and we can look to find the very best option for that child. So that's first and foremost, I think what comes to my mind when you ask that question, also thinking about what we've learned and making sure we carry that into the future, is honoring the voice of the birth families in this process and what their experience has been like. I think that's something we're doing a better job at and something we can continue to work towards. Hearing their voice, hearing their experience, and using that to make sure we're helping foster families know how to best work together in honor of the kids and also honoring the voice of the youth that have the lived experience and using them and making sure they know we see them as the lived expert in all of this and hearing their stories and hearing what they needed, what was helpful for them and maybe what they needed and didn't get. And how can then we as an organization bring together the community and foster families and volunteers to help provide the best experience possible for them moving forward?
[00:41:54] Speaker A: That's great.
[00:41:55] Speaker B: Thank you, Lee.
[00:41:58] Speaker F: I guess just a continued effort to keep offices open throughout the state, keep all the positions staffed, which is always a struggle, I guess, as we grow for the future and realize what positions we're going to need in the future, because things right now are changing and it's probably going to continue to look a lot different in the future.
[00:42:24] Speaker G: One of the trends that is beginning to happen and I hope continues to expand is the clinical support for families. I remember attending the Child Welfare League of America conference maybe three years ago, but there was some emphasis on support, more clinical support for families. It was also included as part of a broader discussion about what? About the case workers in the agencies themselves that could use some clinical support because they're dealing with a lot of traumatic things as well. But overall, it was this idea that we need to make a shift towards helping the helper. And part of that is our foster family. And I like that trend, that if foster parents feel like they're being heard, they're being supported and that we respect their lived experience as foster parents. I think that goes a long way to sustaining a group of families who are more dedicated to helping children. And that's, I think, ultimately how I see us moving forward is we get better at helping those that are helping kids so that the kids benefit.
[00:43:33] Speaker D: It's hard to disagree with the things that have already been said. I think those are the biggest things.
I think when you look back at where we were 25 years ago, I'll never forget sitting in a meeting. It was probably about three months before Utah Foster care started and with the director of the division of Child Family Services. And she told us that at the time, the length of time that children were in foster care was around like three and a half years. And when you look at the current numbers, it's much less than I want to stay somewhere from twelve to 14 months. I mean, it's been a huge shift. And there's a lot of things that have happened legislatively to the child welfare system or with the child welfare system to get us here.
And there's a lot of things that are going on right now. Nikki's mentioned some, Les has mentioned some, the support from Lee to make sure that those things happen. And I think from my perspective, I think one of the greatest things that could happen is Les mentioned the research early on and kind of embracing the research and the changes as they come. And that might be the biggest thing of all, is recognize that we're on a certain path right now with what we know. And as we continue to get more information and as we continue to know more about what children need and what families need, one of the things I appreciate the most about Utah foster cares as an organization is the ability to adapt and to pivot and to keep evolving based on what we know and what we learn and what we were doing 25 years ago. I don't think we would even recognize the organization if we looked at 25 years ago compared to today. And I'm kind of hopeful that in 25 years from now, the thing that we'll recognize is the passion and the dedication and the desire and the support and the engagement of the community, but that they'll continue to be a focus on what families need and children need and the services themselves can change over time.
[00:45:31] Speaker C: I just want to piggyback on what Les and Mike said. I think when we look back 25 years and think of where we were when we started and what we knew or thought we knew when we started to compare to where we are now, I guess what I hope is that what we're building right now will be a solid foundation for whoever's on this screen 25 years from now, doing the 50 year podcast, that they can look back and go, you know, it's what they did back then. It's that attitude of being open to all of the new stuff. I mean, being willing to try things, being willing to do things to improve. I hope that they're able to look back and think that what we did now really is going to benefit kids then, because that's kind of, kind of why we're here, isn't it?
[00:46:19] Speaker B: Once again, that long view.
[00:46:21] Speaker A: Right. And we're wrapping it up. But there's so much more to talk about. And what I can't get over is just the impact the last couple years have had with first lady Abby Cox and her husband, who just happens to be the governor, going full bore into this. The amount of attention they have brought to this, I think is going to bring results that reach far, far into the future. And I think the concept, Liz, of helping the helpers and through Sunday supper and things like that is just something that will only increase in the future.
Liz, what are some of your final thoughts for this discussion?
[00:47:07] Speaker B: Yeah, so I was thinking as we were talking, one, just that Nikki was saying about voice and continue to learn from the people who are the most affected by foster care. So the children, the youth, their families and the foster families. One thing I've learned over 25 years is that those people aren't the greatest teachers and that learning from them is immense. And then I think this idea, too, like you said, of helping the helpers. I've always told foster parents, they're doing the heavy lifting and we're like the spotters. And so just as we continue to evolve and grow and find the kind of supports that best support foster families, that will help them to do the very best work they can and establish the kinds of relationships with the children and the children's families that will have a lasting effect.
[00:47:53] Speaker A: I agree totally. This has been an amazing conversation. And again, about the longevity of Utah foster care, but not just that, but the resilience of these children and foster families and the fact that we have trained more than 16,000 families since 1999. Imagine that, everybody. That should make everyone proud. I challenge any other state to do as well as we've been doing. I do want to thank everyone who has been here for going on 25 observations today and for their help for the future. Also, I want to thank Liz Rivera, my co host, and our producer, Marshall Shearer Davis. Remember, you don't need to know everything to become a foster parent. You just need to be willing to learn. For details on foster parenting and so many other ways you can get involved, we invite you to go to utahfostercare.org dot. I'm Deborah Lindner.
This has been fostering conversations with Utah foster care. Thank you for joining us. For more information, go to utahfostercare.org dot. We'll see you next time.
