Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: This is fostering conversations with Utah foster care, where we have insightful conversations about parenting for bio foster, adoptive, or blended families to better understand the experiences we all face as families.
Hi, I'm Deborah Lindner, and thank you for joining our conversation today.
[00:00:26] Speaker B: And I'm Liz Rivera, also with Utah foster care.
[00:00:29] Speaker A: And we're talking about diversity and inclusion as it revolves around the world of foster care. And, Liz, as we know, we have built in diversity in our population of children in foster care, right?
[00:00:43] Speaker B: We do. And that's a concern for us because they've already lost so much, our children coming into care that we want to try to honor and respect the diversity in culture, in race, ethnicity, faith, traditions that they might be bringing with them.
[00:00:57] Speaker A: We couldn't have a better person to talk about it today. Our guest is Nikki Walker. She's director of diversity, equity, and inclusion at Domo, and she's also their director of community engagement. We are also very fortunate that she serves on Utah Foster Care's board of directors. Nikki, it's great to have you today.
[00:01:18] Speaker C: It's wonderful to be here. Thank you for having me.
[00:01:21] Speaker A: Let's start out on defining these terms, diversity, equity, and inclusion.
[00:01:28] Speaker C: Sure. So, diversity is having different perspectives in the room, different lived experiences. So when we have a diverse group of people, it's really interesting and it's empowering, because what we have are different ideas. Because people live their lives in certain bodies, right? And those bodies really have an impact on how you are looked at in society, how society treats you and what your life feels like, if you will. So having diverse people is really key to any organization, any group, because we have different lived experiences, and we can learn from one another. Now, that's diversity, and it is a fact. It exists everywhere. Even if you have a room full of people who look the same, if you dig a little deeper, you'll find that there's diversity in that room. So you'll find different diversity in their faith, in their ethnicity, in the cultures that they celebrate. Just because people look the same does not mean that it's a monolith, which is also great to note. Equity is next. And so equity is making sure that everybody has what they need in order to succeed. I say this all the time. Equality and equity are not the same. Equality says that everybody gets the same thing, but equity says that everybody gets the thing that they need in order to succeed. So we're putting people on an even playing field by managing their accessibility needs, all kinds of needs that come from people in diverse backgrounds. So equity is making sure, everybody has what they need to succeed, and then inclusion is ensuring that everybody's voice is heard, because it's really cool when you have diversity around the table and you can see the diversity and hear the diversity in the room. But when only the majority voices are heard, then it poses a problem. So inclusion really is about making sure that voices are heard, accepted, acknowledged, and instituted. So that's diversity, equity, and inclusion in a nutshell.
[00:03:41] Speaker B: And all of those things sound like, first of all, he said, diversity just exists, and then equity, inclusion are more things we have to act upon in order to make sure that diversity is acknowledged and valued. So why is it so controversial?
[00:03:57] Speaker C: Dei has a very bad publicist right now.
[00:04:00] Speaker B: And.
[00:04:03] Speaker C: Unfortunately, because Dei has a bad publicist, the narrative has been hijacked, and what it. And politicized. Originally, this concept was not a political concept. It was a humanitarian concept, right? It was really about people learning from one another, learning from each other's experiences and taking those experiences so that they could innovate, so that they could activate, so that they could create. Right? And so that people who were in marginalized communities, or, like, we like to remind people, the global majority, people in the global majority have specialized needs because they haven't had access to certain things that the majority has had access to. So when we look at things like employment pipelines, often when people are referring people to jobs, they're referring their inner circles. And our inner circles generally look like us. These are people who worship with us. These are people who. We have extracurricular activities in common. These are people who often look the same as we do. They have the same political lean that we do. And so what happens is you are recruiting in an echo chamber. But when you get outside of that and allow diversity to be what it is, right, which is not a conflict. It is about expanding our ideas. And when you allow that to happen, you start to see employment pipelines change. You start to see church pews change. You start to see social activity groups and circles change, because we understand that what we are doing is learning. And learning is a lifelong process, and we need to be in spaces where we're empathetic to others. And so empathy, I like to say the E in DEI also stands for empathy, because once you put yourself in someone else's shoes and try to understand the place from where they're coming, it gives you, again, that new perspective and that ability to understand how people are feeling, what they are experiencing.
[00:06:19] Speaker B: It sounds a little bit to me like you're saying that DEI programs are really about shaking us up a little bit, getting us out of our comfort zone, getting us to realize there are a lot more people out there than we may have immediate contact with. And to me, that sounds exciting to know that this world is bigger than my world.
[00:06:38] Speaker C: Right. It's a very exciting opportunity to burst out of the bubble that we often live in and really understand the richness of the tapestry of our world, of our neighbors. Dei takes it back to the golden rule, right? To treat people as you would want to be treated. And when we dig down, it sounds simplistic. It's not, and it's not because we have institutionalized issues that affect people, and that is why Dei exists. Right. So, yeah, getting outside of that bubble is important, but also acknowledging that there's a reason why DEi exists. And I think that a lot of times, people don't want to acknowledge the challenges that our country has had, whether that is challenges with the african american community or the LGBTQ community or Native Americans or the treatment of our veterans. People don't want to acknowledge that hurt, those kind of scars that we have as a country. And so it becomes a moment where people become defensive. Why do I have to. Why should I participate? Why do they deserve something different? And I think that's the other thing. People think that Dei is giving away something. We're not giving away anything. In Dei practices, what we are doing is lifting people to the level so that they are at the starting line. If you get invited to the race and nobody tells you where the starting line is, well, how fair is that? You don't get to run a fair race. So it really is about people running a fair race, and these are people who are qualified, people who are qualified for the job, the position, the whatever it is, and really opening up opportunities for them.
[00:08:40] Speaker A: One thing that's always impressed me about many of the foster parents that we train and follow at Utah foster care is when they first come into the training, they are, as you said, they're in their own world. But I think we try to teach to think about the child's needs, and Utah is diverse, like you said, and foster care is diverse. A quarter of the children in foster care are latino or hispanic, and we don't have enough latino foster parents. So many of them do have to go to caucasian homes. And when they do, the foster parents are encouraged to help them maintain their own culture. And that's really important because that's what the child has been used to.
[00:09:28] Speaker C: That's incredibly important, especially at such a young age when children are being essentially displaced from the homes that they have been in, and they're going into new environments, being able to keep something steady for them is important. So making sure that they remain connected to their communities through whatever means that looks like. If it's playgroups with people from the hispanic community, if it is going to cultural activities that the city has often, whether it is having books in your home that reflect the. The child who is now in your home, it's incredibly important. And I'll tell you one thing that I've heard a lot from foster parents, adoptive parents, and parents in general, and it's well meaning, it is that there is no color in our house, or we don't see color here. And I tell parents all the time, that phrase is a detriment to your child, because when your child walks out of the home, everyone else sees color. And if you are a caucasian family raising a black child, and you don't explain to them who they are in society or how society has framed them, then they are at a disadvantage. Because when that black child gets pulled over, no one's gonna ask if their parents are white, they are going to be a black person in this car, and hopefully nothing happens. However, as a mother to a black son, what is a cultural norm that happened in my household is that I had to have what we call the talk with my black son. I had to explain to him that when you get pulled over, if you get pulled over, there are things that you must do to remain safe. And I've had this conversation with friends who do not have black sons. And they are flabbergasted that this is a conversation that has to be had. But again, when you go back to cultural norms and you go back to what it looks like to be different, these are things that have to be explored when diverse children are in the home. It's incredibly important.
[00:11:50] Speaker B: I still remember we had a. Went to an adoption conference once, and it was a white mother. She actually was a judge, and she'd adopted a boy who was black. And she told a story about him coming home. He was probably about eleven or twelve. And he showed his mom his palms, which often are lighter tone. And he said to his mom, look at my palms. He said, I'm white, huh? I'm white. I'm white, aren't I? I'm white, huh. And it was just desperately heartbreaking because he couldn't live in his own skin, because he felt something was wrong with that. And that story has always broken my heart that this little boy, he couldn't celebrate who he was because the message was somehow implicit or explicit. What you are does not really belong here. And so she said that really changed how she started understanding color, because she said before that it was very much like, oh, color blind. Everybody's the same. It's fine. And she realized that no matters.
[00:12:43] Speaker C: Yeah. We look at public schools right now, and we can speak specifically to Utah children being bullied for who they are, their color of their skin or the texture of their hair or the shape of their eyes. These are things that are happening every day, and we know it. We can point to examples of tragedies where children have been bullied to the point of taking their own lives. And so we need to really dig in deep and understand the cultures that we're bringing into our homes so that we can protect our children and give them the tools that are necessary for them to really exist in a space where they are not the majority.
[00:13:26] Speaker A: For me, the inclusion part, too. As Liz knows, Utah foster care has dealt with. We have more and more children and teens coming into foster care who identify as LGBTQ.
That has to be acknowledged. That needs to be acknowledged to make them feel included.
[00:13:47] Speaker C: It has to be. And we're fortunate here in Utah that there are so many safe spaces for LGBTQ children. Like encircle quality Utah exists. There's the LGBTQ chamber here. There are resources for parents that they can really reach out to, that already have programming in place to address these needs. And it's really. It's important for parents to be educated about the resources that exist for them so they don't feel like they have to reinvent the wheel. Right. There's something that exists already to help you through this place that you're in, and reaching out is critical.
[00:14:25] Speaker B: So that kind of gets us into this idea of regardless of what legislation any government might pass that was for or against DEI programs, what do we do as community members, as citizens, as neighbors, to start living Dei in our own lives, to seeing the diversity, to working for equity, for looking at inclusion. How do we do that?
[00:14:48] Speaker C: Yeah. The work of DEi, regardless of the letters that are attached to it, is going to continue to go on, and that is because, at the end of the day, it is work that should be done. Making sure that folks feel they have equitable access to success is paramount. And so the work is going to continue while we go through these legislative updates around the country here in Utah. But I often say people should try and be the I in inclusion. If you make yourself the I in inclusion, what it does is puts you in another mindset. And that mindset is, how can I connect with this person who is not like me? Inclusion has to start with you because it is, again, a mindset that really is catchy. It's really contagious. When I am thinking about how I can help my neighbor to better navigate the world that we are in simultaneously, it opens my mind, because now I have the opportunity to say to my neighbor, what is it that you're experiencing in the world, and how can I help you? Right. How can I be a better ally to you? It is about being curious. The way to inclusion is curiosity. So each of us has a responsibility to be curious about the next person as opposed to. To making assumptions about the next person. Therein lies the first step to inclusion. It is about really digging into the who and the why of the person next to you.
Once we do that, empathy becomes a lot easier. It's a lot easier to empathize with someone who you relate to on a human level. And when we start to talk to one another, we realize that we relate to each other on a human level much more than we don't relate. Right. Everybody wants their children to be happy, healthy, and successful. Everybody wants to take care of their aging parents. Everybody wants to make sure that they can pay the mortgage and the car. Note, these are things that we all have in common. Now, how those things get done, how people are treated in the midst of doing those things, differs based on lots of things. And so learning about your neighbor who just moved in, who is hispanic and you are not would be an interesting conversation, because we know that getting into a home if you are non white is more difficult than if you are white. And this is a statistic. These are facts that can be looked at, and we know that. So understanding what was your process of getting a mortgage and having that conversation humanizes the person next to you who you may have made an assumption about. Right? But now you understand their journey and you relate to them on a different level. So I think really, when we're. Again, when we're talking about inclusion, we really need to do the work of understanding the people around us, whether we work with them, worship with them, live with them, wherever it is that we are encountering them.
[00:18:16] Speaker A: And I've heard a lot of people say, quite frankly, they're afraid to begin a discussion. But there are ways you can be respectful while at the same time being very brave and asking those hard questions.
[00:18:31] Speaker C: It is brave. It is a brave thing to do, and that's why everybody isn't doing it. That's why we're still having these conversations, because people are afraid. We're in a volatile time right now, and anything can be politicized, anything can be divisive. So it is a very tricky topic to attempt. But for people, especially foster care families, it's imperative that they do it. If you are brave enough to bring another soul into your home, you can be brave enough to ask the questions that are going to nourish that soul.
[00:19:11] Speaker B: I love that. I think that's one of the ones we need to clip through.
[00:19:14] Speaker A: You should write that one down.
[00:19:16] Speaker B: I think another group of people that people are often afraid of are the parents of the children who come into foster care. And the way that so many of our foster parents form relationships with the parents of the children in their care never ceases to amaze me how they cross these cultural divides. And so many of them have said, this is someone I never would have known in my. A non foster care life. They say life, but I love them. And so it's also the children's families that so many of our families built these bridges with.
[00:19:45] Speaker C: Absolutely. And those families are another resource that foster care families should be taking advantage of. Those families understand their children better than anybody. Right. And they understand culture, whether that is ethnic culture, whatever the culture is. Right. You talking with the parents and the family really gets you into the place where the child has an anchor. Right. You can understand what anchors that child, and you can do workarounds to make sure that you're supporting that.
[00:20:18] Speaker B: We had one foster mom that used to keep different kinds of laundry detergent, and when she'd have a new child come at her home, she'd have them smell them and say, which one smells like home? Isn't that wonderful? And then that was the one she would use. Yeah. To wash the child's clothes, because she recognized that need for that stability. I love that word used, anchoring some kind of sense of connection, and that she valued that child's need for that, too.
[00:20:43] Speaker C: And that is an incredible example of inclusion to get to belonging. Right. That's an incredible moment where somebody is saying, I want your voice at the table, and I want to hear your voice. So there's inclusion in action right there. I love that.
[00:21:04] Speaker B: And I love how you just said inclusion into belonging, that belonging is even deeper. We can include somebody, but when they truly belong, what a beautiful goal.
[00:21:15] Speaker C: That's got to be the goal, right? The goal of all DEi programs, practices, and practitioners is to get to the place of belonging. So once you have the diversity and the equity is happening, so people are having equal access to the things that they need, and folks are listening to their voices because they want that inclusion to happen. The finale of that is belonging. Now I understand that my whole self, my authentic person, is welcome here, and I feel like I belong. So that is the goal of Dei, is belonging.
[00:21:54] Speaker A: I'm curious, Nikki, since you've been in this space for a while, what kind of conversations have you seen about this very subject that can lift us up to another level?
[00:22:08] Speaker C: Oh, that's a good question. Sadly, right now, the conversations are so heavy and there's a cloud around Dei right now. But I see those challenges in Dei right now as opportunities. So the opportunity is to talk about Dei in a way that isn't divisive. Once you understand the concepts of Dei, you can change your language. Language is so important. It is the thing that connects us. When we are using language that doesn't feel divisive, but that feels like connection. So we're talking about connecting with people, engaging with people, understanding people. When we're using that kind of language, it helps to soften the approach, because a lot of people right now, when you walk into a conversation and you say Dei, lots of people shut down for a myriad of reasons, because they just don't want to be bothered with the divisiveness, because perhaps they have a misunderstanding about what DeI is. There are all of these reasons why people could and would shut down. But as I said earlier, regardless of what acronyms we use, the work has to be done, and the work is figuring out how to give people the opportunity to be included and to get to that space of belonging. So those are the conversations that I'd like to have. And DEI practitioners here in Utah are starting to have those conversations. In fact, there is one DeI practitioner who did an entire survey for all DEI practitioners to talk about what the climate looks like now and what the steps forward are. We really are digging in because what we want to be able to do is to have conversations that are in line with one another. We want all Dei practitioners to use the same language, use the same concepts to help people understand what is happening in the now, because Dei is a practice and we have to practice every day. And as we practice, we make mistakes, but we also have successes, right? And these small wins that we can really amplify. So that's the conversation in the community right now. How are we going to change the language so that the work can continue to be done?
[00:24:38] Speaker A: And, Liz, part of our language has always been at Utah foster care. Is that how this child can be successful? The parents, bio parents, foster parents, it all comes down to what can be successful for that child. So that's where we often start our conversation, and we should be willing to enlarge that, and I'm sure we will.
[00:25:02] Speaker B: Niki was talking about language, and I'm thinking about the word belonging. She also used the word connection. We talk about relationships a lot. All of these things are part and parcel of everything we've been talking about today is do people feel valued for who they are? Do they feel seen and heard and safe and safe? Absolutely. And accepted. And not just accepted, but celebrated and honored. There's so much work that is just human work that we need to do with each other.
[00:25:33] Speaker C: Amen.
[00:25:34] Speaker A: We'll end it there. And I want to give a big shout out to Nikki for joining us. One thing I really loved you saying is be the eye in inclusion. If you're listening to this and you take one thing away from it, take that. I want to thank everyone who has made this program possible. My co host, Liz Rivera, and our producer, the man behind the scenes, Marshall Shearer Davis. Remember, you don't need to know everything to become a foster parent. You just need to be willing to learn. For details on foster parenting and so many other ways you can get involved, go to utahfostercare.org dot. I'm Deborah Litner.
This has been fostering conversations with Utah foster care. Thank you for joining us. For more information, go to utahfostercare.org dot. We'll see you next time.
